Jump to content


Photo

Breaking Siege's/Fortified positions


  • Please log in to reply
16 replies to this topic

#1 Smythe

Smythe

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 197 posts

Posted 10 July 2017 - 06:11 PM

Alright, with the First now on hold for reasons I'm looking at actually doing the 19th again. But this time with some actual effort on my part. I've been looking into them and they seem to be very much an infiltrating/alpha strike Legion, with some heavy hitters in reserve. Which I like that kind of combined arms approach. The thing is... how does the 19th deal with heavily fortified positions.

 

Example: heavily fortified bunker complex that's controlling a planets orbital defenses. So yes whilst the Fleet, and certain ships of the 19th, can get in position they'd be unable to actually lay down an orbital strike without taking serious damage - that kind of situation. And whilst you can stealth drop in assets onto the ground, what would they be? Breacher's tooled with melta weapons and teleport homers? Certain mobile artillery pieces (Leviathan/Deredeo/other Dreadnoughts, variations of Sicarans and Whirlwind tanks)? Is that the kind of thing that would make sense and generally fit into the larger Legion style (I'm not suggesting actual siege artillery but something more middle ground between infiltration/infantry and being able to crack the harder nuts when they need cracking)


  • jeanettexw60, Thomaskax, WalterToila and 5 others like this

#2 Raglan

Raglan

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 14,008 posts
  • LocationMonmouthshire

Posted 23 July 2017 - 10:30 PM

I'm sure someone will argue that every Legion can turn it's hand to all kinds of warfare, but the Raven Guard fluff doesn't really fit siege warfare old boy.  


  • Raktus likes this

#3 Smythe

Smythe

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 197 posts

Posted 23 July 2017 - 11:12 PM

Care to extrapolate on how they'd crack those hard to reach nuts then in that case? Because just saying the fluff doesn't fit them doesn't really do it, an example would.



#4 drweir4

drweir4

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 534 posts

Posted 24 July 2017 - 09:54 AM

The reality is that all legions could and probably did do all styles of combat at certain points during the crusade. The raven guard would certainly have had access to the heavy armour and shock assault forces required to force a breach. I think its more that they would have probabaly tried other ways first, falling back on an all out assault if the more sneaky ways failed. Wheras a legion like iron warriors or world eaters would have gone for the breaching attack immediately, without considering other options

 

One of the things I like about the heresy is armies doing things that are slightly unexpected, and not just playing up their stereotypes

 

During the heresy its slightly more tricky for the raven guard because their strength was so reduced after istvaan, but there are still examples of them attacking defended positions in force in the fluff



#5 Smythe

Smythe

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 197 posts

Posted 24 July 2017 - 07:02 PM

The thing is, and for what I'm working on, I'm not advocating siege warfare in the classic all out assault/artillery method you'd expect from Iron Warriors/Hands or Imperial Fists, just need to make that clear. More along the lines of distraction units (say.. flyers) whilst small but perfectly equipped units advance into position through general sneakiness before blowing the doors down or making that hole in the wall to come through and 'surprise '. 

There's fiction out there of Corax leading recon/teleport homer equipped units through a space port that calls in Terminator strike teams, let's use that as a basis but put it planetside and you still need to make a hole in that bunker complex to be able to get inside in the first place, have an element of distraction (the token artillery unit if you will in the form of a Whirlwind or like), crack the wall in a point not being focused by the enemy and continue with the general 'surprise' that can ensue.

 

It's that or just playing to the 'normal' Raven Guard themes which means it's exactly the same as every other one, which let's be fair is kind of dull.



#6 Raglan

Raglan

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 14,008 posts
  • LocationMonmouthshire

Posted 24 July 2017 - 09:55 PM

It's that or just playing to the 'normal' Raven Guard themes which means it's exactly the same as every other one, which let's be fair is kind of dull.

 

I've played RG fluffy since the start of my Heresy journey (5+ years ago now), never found them dull. 



#7 Raglan

Raglan

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 14,008 posts
  • LocationMonmouthshire

Posted 24 July 2017 - 09:56 PM

The reality is that all legions could and probably did do all styles of combat at certain points during the crusade. 

 

.........told you, didn't I  ;)



#8 Danarc

Danarc

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 78 posts
  • LocationPerugia, Italy

Posted 31 July 2017 - 08:01 AM

The only time when RG attacked using a siege army was in the battle at Gate 42. It wasn't good for us. We lost thousands of battle-brothers because of Horus orders. 
We are not made for siege warfare.


  • Raglan likes this

hRWAsb0.jpg

 


#9 andycmac

andycmac

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 73 posts
  • LocationEdinburgh

Posted 31 July 2017 - 09:28 PM

Maybe not siege warfare exactly but not only are RG good at breaking fortified positions, but they broke the very best position in the 'Siege of the Perfect Fortress'. This was designed by Fulgrim with help from Perturabo and Corax walks over it ;) It's in the novel Deliverance Lost which is a very cool book for ideas. It's not a straight forward battle of course, IA besieged and taunted the Emporer's Children into a counter attack which is when the RG pounced. I might remember some bigger bits of kit being used but be prepared to buy lots Dark Furys after reading those books!

 

http://wh40k.lexican...erfect_Fortress



#10 Smythe

Smythe

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 197 posts

Posted 03 August 2017 - 09:13 PM

Maybe not siege warfare exactly but not only are RG good at breaking fortified positions, but they broke the very best position in the 'Siege of the Perfect Fortress'. This was designed by Fulgrim with help from Perturabo and Corax walks over it ;) It's in the novel Deliverance Lost which is a very cool book for ideas. It's not a straight forward battle of course, IA besieged and taunted the Emporer's Children into a counter attack which is when the RG pounced. I might remember some bigger bits of kit being used but be prepared to buy lots Dark Furys after reading those books!

 

http://wh40k.lexican...erfect_Fortress

 

 

Now this is what I'm talking about. I don't understand why when I'm saying cracking a fortress with RG you guys are assuming actual siege warfare strategy and/or running at the walls. That's stupid.



#11 Smythe

Smythe

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 197 posts

Posted 11 August 2017 - 05:25 PM

Pro 20431695 10155371978642420 8134688993092492003 N
Album: 19th, "The Bunker Busters"
8 images
0 comments

 

So just thought I'd expand this into a bit of a painting log project too. Here's some little bits I've been working on, unfinished or half finished models not shown.

 

Like the result on this guy, even though there's a few minor details left to do he's still gaming ready.

Spoiler

 



#12 EmberlordofFire

EmberlordofFire

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 18 posts
  • LocationHoly Terra

Posted 13 August 2017 - 02:43 PM

The Raven Guard tend to do well in siege battles, remember the deliverance uprising was technically a battle for a fortress. And Istvaan V, where we assaulted the traitor position and would have won, if ferrus had managed to keep his head on. I would imagine Raven Guard sieges as infiltration operations, with small breacher teams sneaking into the enemy fortress and opening the gates from the inside, or something like that.


Survivors of Prospero

 

No world shall be beyond my rule; no enemy shall be beyond my wrath.

-The Emperor 


#13 Smythe

Smythe

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 197 posts

Posted 13 August 2017 - 02:50 PM

Bingo, think we're looking at this from the same side Emberlord. At least that's the interpretation I'm going for - you have dedicated those breaching teams that open the door to let the heavier assault elements in. It's not like the Firsts/Warriors/Death Guard, etc style of siege warfare we're you're sitting shelling a fortified position it's more of a mobile diversion ("captain, the invaders are firing at us from behind those hills to our east") whilst the real threat is placing demo charges on an undefended section of the wall to the west ;)



#14 Raglan

Raglan

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 14,008 posts
  • LocationMonmouthshire

Posted 28 August 2017 - 09:13 PM

The only time when RG attacked using a siege army was in the battle at Gate 42. It wasn't good for us. We lost thousands of battle-brothers because of Horus orders. 
We are not made for siege warfare.

 

Well said sir, I prefer my heresy historians who don't f@#k with history  ;)

 

What next, an Iron Warrior rapid infiltration force?  



#15 Smythe

Smythe

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 197 posts

Posted 29 August 2017 - 02:06 PM

Look I get it, a few of you really don't like the idea of this. But arguing the semantics of 1 record in 1 book as the be-all/end-all of the discussion isn't going to help me or your cause. The more you say that the 19th don't do anything against heavily fortified positions makes it sounds like you're saying that the 19th NEVER did anything against a heavily fortified position. There's a middle ground here which is what I'm trying to build within the theme of the Legion. Which is not, as you seem to be thinking, artillery, battlelines, trench warfare or the meat grinder that was Gate-42. 

 

Heck Corax and the 19th must have had ways into heavily fortified cities/complexes/hives/places other than the sterotypical 'but they just sneak in'.


  • Generic-Dave likes this

#16 drweir4

drweir4

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 534 posts

Posted 29 August 2017 - 02:40 PM

I think in Corax one of the stories is them essentially doing a decap strike on a mech hive - essentially they do it by sending loyal mech and some dudes to do a distraction attack at the front while they drop in the back to do the decap once forces have been re-diverted

 

Perhaps the reason for some of the confusion is that for the most part their method of war involves not trying to break fortified positions - most of the examples in the fluff involve them finding a different approach which avoids static defences for the most part

 

However, even if they are strategically avoiding heavy defences, in the tactical scale of 30k, the final objective might still be heavily fortified and therefore they break out the spartans / typhons etc to break down the gate / storm the objectives. I think the key difference is that to get to the final objective they only break down 1 gate, while a different legion might have battered through like 20 gates to get to the final one!

 

If you think about it in terms of the best fluff siege depiction (Vraks), there is no way the raven guard look at the huge 3 lines of defence and decide to attrition through. Presumably, they would have used some distractions and sabotage to open an unexpected path straight to the citadel and then done a shock assault. Risky, but potentially very effective. To portray the final assault in the scale of a 30k game though, you could basically use any toys in the list you wanted tbh



#17 Generic-Dave

Generic-Dave

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 110 posts
  • LocationAbingdon, Oxfordshire

Posted 01 September 2017 - 01:21 PM

I get what you are saying and agree that a 'decap strike' is how they would approach it. Hard to someone work into actual game tactics, but I suspect they would do a sneaky mission to find a critical power line or something to knock out anti-air defence and then drop in. Rather than, as you say, attrition through all the defence lines like the Iron Warriors would. 

 

Personally I think Raven Guard would use all tools at their disposal to achieve the mission, including artillery but in a very different way to other legions. Infiltrating in a strike force to allow a precision artillery strike on a hardened target for example. Which then allows more infiltrating forces to gain access to a base. An armoured column, while not very ‘stealthy’ could punch through a line and drop off infiltrators, the armoured column continues on to a random target, takes that out and withdraws… The real objective being to deposit troops behind the lines in a situation where the enemy has total air cover preventing an aerial insertion (which would be the preferred tactic).

 

It is why I am perfectly happy having terminators in an army (though not many) because teleporting in (ok, not in 30k) and destroying a target before teleporting away is still ‘hit and run’.


Generic Dave | XIX Legion | Raven Guard | Eclipse Strike Force "The Falcon's Claws"

 

http://heresy30k.invisionzone.com/index.php?/gallery/album/250-raven-guard/

 





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users